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i've been meaning to have this discussion with some fire performers for a while, and finally i have found the perfect forum. that's right i'm talking about FAG (umm...should we do something about this acronym)?
here's what i'm thinking:
everywhere you go, anywhere you look, whereever you find people spinning, eating, trailing, playing with fire in general, it always falls under the collective umbrella of "art" or "performance".
what if we started looking at our pyromaniacal hobbies in a completely different way? instead of performance art, we could try to start thinking of our craft as a sport. why would we ever do that you may ask? well, a number of reasons...
first of all, it seems to me that it would be much easier to legitimize a "sport" than general "performance art", and by legitimize i mean arrange for permits and other such interactions involving the authorities. i think powers that be types would be much more sympathetic to a sport rather than descriptions of a bunch of crazy freaks calling themselves artists throwing fire all about...
i also think that we could organize much larger and more successful events, because people love competitions and superstar athletes. i'm thinking we could use the breakdancing model, have battles between individuals or crews, judged by respectable experts. this would also make it much easier to get sponsorships...
also if we were more of a "sport" i think people would be much more inclined to take lessons themselves or send their kids...
i know that many of you feel competition has no place in our artform. i also realize that in what we do it is extremely difficult to judge one performance as better than the next (once you get above a certain level and the flow is present, it is really a subjective thing) but hey, it's the same in breakdancing, gymnastics, ice skating, martial art forms, and any other sport with judges. but i do think that there are many benefits to be reaped from becoming "athletes" rather than "artists". also, i think the olympics would be much more interesting to watch if they had a firespinning event...let's shoot for 2012!
well the idea is out there, now...discuss!
skunk
here's what i'm thinking:
everywhere you go, anywhere you look, whereever you find people spinning, eating, trailing, playing with fire in general, it always falls under the collective umbrella of "art" or "performance".
what if we started looking at our pyromaniacal hobbies in a completely different way? instead of performance art, we could try to start thinking of our craft as a sport. why would we ever do that you may ask? well, a number of reasons...
first of all, it seems to me that it would be much easier to legitimize a "sport" than general "performance art", and by legitimize i mean arrange for permits and other such interactions involving the authorities. i think powers that be types would be much more sympathetic to a sport rather than descriptions of a bunch of crazy freaks calling themselves artists throwing fire all about...
i also think that we could organize much larger and more successful events, because people love competitions and superstar athletes. i'm thinking we could use the breakdancing model, have battles between individuals or crews, judged by respectable experts. this would also make it much easier to get sponsorships...
also if we were more of a "sport" i think people would be much more inclined to take lessons themselves or send their kids...
i know that many of you feel competition has no place in our artform. i also realize that in what we do it is extremely difficult to judge one performance as better than the next (once you get above a certain level and the flow is present, it is really a subjective thing) but hey, it's the same in breakdancing, gymnastics, ice skating, martial art forms, and any other sport with judges. but i do think that there are many benefits to be reaped from becoming "athletes" rather than "artists". also, i think the olympics would be much more interesting to watch if they had a firespinning event...let's shoot for 2012!
well the idea is out there, now...discuss!
skunk
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New York City
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Re: Change of direction
Sun, June 27, 2004 - 5:11 PMwell I think you have some good thoughts and fire certainly has elements of both athletic and artistic. But truth be told changing the simantics of wording will do little to overcome the true botom line issues facing the fire industry be it art or sport. The key issues being legitmacy, regulation, saftey, and communication with political powers that be weather local, state or federal. Many things like competition are great for encouraging reaching new levels but thats not even possible if you can't be legitimate enough to even do the most basic things like practice legaly... and in many areas this appears to be a challenge. Weather we call it art or sport will make little to no diffrence in that hurdel. The other issue is that if you look at other artistic sports they are struggling as well. Inmost cases there athletes struggle to maintain coaches practice spaces and even meet minimal standards to compete on an olimpic level. I happen to be from a gymnastics family my father ran meets and was an athlete on a national level. What I saw first had was funding struggles schools at all levels cutting there gymnastics programs due to the high cost to insure them and the low level of interest compared to major team sports. In the 70's when most every college and high school cut there programs the national USA gymnastics program took a nose dive.... the point it makes no diffrence weather you call it sport or art if theres no funding sports face the same issues arts do. So what makes a diffrence? A few things having private orginizations that regulate offer coaching and specificly support advanced training and funding to top newbies in the feild (hmm sounds like something FAG could do) and out of those orginizations having one personality, story, hero etc come out that increased national interest. BUT these are short lived although enrolment in these sports tend to greatly increase for a year unless there is more intrest agains ebes.
So basicly what I'm sayin is I think these are great ideas and perhaps we should run with some etc BUT its not gonna be what solves the problems we currently face. Just calling it a sport is not going to make officals any more fire friendly it will be what we do not what we call it in the end. IMO -
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Re: Change of direction
Tue, June 29, 2004 - 7:28 PMwell gigi and marco i won't deny that the road is a long and hard one (now we're really getting into sex act territory) but hey, we got the same challenges lying in front of us either way. i do think semantics go a long way in this world, from my own experience, and especially in our beloved, lawyer filled country, but of course that is just a matter of opinion and we could argue that till we're blue in the face (or red in the fingers in this case) and we still won't know until we try...
i think gymnastics is a bad example, because although there's no denying how cool it is, it always (and still) had amateur status. there are no professional gymnasts, and that may have something to do with the fact that you pretty much have to be super young to do it well. this is why in gymnastics you have to find "funding" from programs that are already strapped for funds rather than "sponsorship" from companies like say, gatorade, who will surely see the thirst quenching potential of fire spinning, as in the case of pro sports.
i think if gymnastics did try to market itself a little more as an extreme type sport it might have been successful, but it is probably one of the oldest sports out there so i'm sure it's very hard to change or bend any rules there...anyway that's besides the point. like roger said we're talking about more of an extreme sport model like snowboarding, or gymnastics' hip hoppy bastard cousin, breakdancing. in both of these cases you have many people with many different and unique styles that are national heroes and kids definitely idolize them, and the sport is growing as a result.
for quite some time now i've been giving much thought to a national, or even international level technical/style competition, because a) would be really fun, b) would give us a forum/venue for actually discussing all this FAG stuff face to face, and c) i'm sick of being one of a handful of people making up new moves and pushing/expanding the art or sport or w-ever u wanna call it, and i think that would definitely drive people to become better, practice more, be more original.
that b my opinion...and if i were to try to organize such an event, what would be the best place to do it? meaning which state currently has the most open fire performance rules? cause i know it sure ain't new york...
skunk
PS roger yes that is me and thank u. i don't know if i would quite be into that whole jedi challenge thing u describe, or even how i feel about coopting the scifi concept of the jedi for fire spinning, but was thinking more a fire spinning battle where either individuals or crews get a set and then judges hold up scores, kinda like miss america! i mean bboys -
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Re: Change of direction
Tue, June 29, 2004 - 8:21 PMI personally favor California for totally selfish reasons. We do have some fire departments that are friendlier, especially to something well organized... There's some sort of Samoan fire knife competition coming up in Anaheim that I just read about on HOP.
If you're looking for technical spinners, though, you really need to go to the UK. Who would you put on your list of technical spinners? I'd say Coleman, Rob (bluecat), PK, Matt Terry (poipoipoi on HOP) and Glass are really pushing things on the technical side. Here in the US, I know you, some of the Wildfire guys (ie Nasu), Dantana, and Rev are very techy... -
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Re: Change of direction
Tue, June 29, 2004 - 9:11 PMhate to be a cop about it but now we are getting way off topic...we can continue this discussion in private if u wish, but let's keep it off this thread/tribe...
while u got me here though lemme just say that i know many people in the states that are amazing but just don't know/do HOP, and i have to say, i don't blame them, that site is just too big now and you end up losing hours and days just lookin at it...
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Re: Change of direction
Tue, June 29, 2004 - 9:01 PMCongrats on finding the reply buton <snicker> regardless the whole competitive thing I think is cool. AZ laws are ok we can do live fire on any private property fire marshal approval etc for public venues but so far they seem very nice about the whole thing. Of corse I would talk to Lama about that hes the best AZ contact by far. Of corse its the only state hotter than the fire your spinning LOL
out of curiostiy you gonna be at either burning man or SD/LA precomp? Im always interested in learning swaping stuff :-) -
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Re: Change of direction
Tue, June 29, 2004 - 9:19 PMi was planning on skipping bm this year, but going to flipside has changed my mind...if i can survive my new job for the next couple months i'll see you there. just follow your nose... -
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Re: Change of direction
Tue, June 29, 2004 - 11:24 PMFor what it's worth, I think that there's a move in California towards large-scale gatherings of fire spinners in order to cross-polinate and share. There was a gathering in Pismo a couple of months ago, and next week is the Fire Arts Festival in Oakland. The Pismo folks have started a monthly gathering just north of LA, but I find it hard to believe that they'd be able to draw a decent crowd that regularly. Something like the Fire Arts Festival, once or twice a year (this is their first one ever) can be a big enough draw that eventually everyone will put it on their calendar and show up.
I love BurningMan... but there's sooo much other great stuff going on that it'd be hard to see all the great spinners present. Everyone's distracted by everything else! -
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Re: Change of direction
Wed, June 30, 2004 - 8:52 AMI hear yah problem is for some of us traveling to something like the fire arts festival takes alot more warning than we got. The Bay area is a good 14 hr drive so its doable BUT it takes a bit of planning and to wrangle our whole troop out takes alot of planning.... coordinating 12 performers schedules on little notice is really hard. So may be next year. So in the mean time I will have to hope I can smell skunk out or run into other people willing to play on the playa. It sems to be a great chance to meet people with vastly diffrent backgrounds styles and methods, when there willing to share. -
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Re: Change of direction
Wed, June 30, 2004 - 9:28 AMOoh. I totally forgot. You guys should sign up to perform at the Center Camp Cauldron. Tabasco from Pyrosutra recently moved to the Bay Area, and he's coordinating all of that. With a regular performance stage for fire, we should be able to see some great troupes.
Other great gatherings will be the HOP gathering, and the Friday night show-me salons for Crimson -- not so much the main show-me, which will just be some troupe showing Crimson that they can do the set routine, but I figure with that many fire people in one spot, there's bound to be some action on the side. -
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Re: Change of direction
Wed, June 30, 2004 - 10:35 AMYeah we will be at the show me on friday night... since were the new kids on the block we fall in to alternate status. But hey its about time a group from AZ made a showing out there. So how do we go about contacting tabasco??? etc. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Change of direction
Fri, July 9, 2004 - 12:13 PMTribe or e-mail is great. but it's off topic, e-mail me for more info
Tabasco@irongypsy.com
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Re: Change of direction
Tue, June 29, 2004 - 11:31 PMHey Skunk, your always welcome to come check out Philly. We've got one guy who is so crazy technical that it blows my mind. he's like 110 lbs, been spinning for only one year and is SO FUCKING GOOD!!! I'm goin on 6 years here and he blows me away technically. Its amazing really. inspiring too. and I've seen hundreds of performers in various countries... I was blown away by your moves too, I must say ; )
But hey, when it comes to poi as a sex act, He cant hold a flame to me. LOL
Anyway, sorry I'm off topic.
BM is a great place, I think, to get together and spin, be it competitive or not. Does anyone else know of another place on earth, ever, that more than 500 fire spinners (and thats just the conclave members) gather together to perform?? I've never heard of anything like it before.
As far as sport/sex act/excersize goes. I say its all three, and more, and no one will ever get anyone to stick to one or the other. a bit confusing really. However, I do want to comment on the pro-tournament poi-off competition. If it got to that level, Spectators abound, bad news I think. Perhaps you should invite everyone up to NYC for an underground secret warehouse poi spin-off. Keep it low key, no X games, ya know what I mean? I think it could be cool at that level. and besides, everyone loves NY.
See you soon??
Peace, Denise Denise -
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Re: Change of direction
Wed, June 30, 2004 - 12:11 AMOR, Rob (bluecat) was trying to organize a skater-style video... 10 of the best spinners in the UK go off on a little retreat with 5 DV cameras, lots of footage of crazy technical poi spinning, edited down and put on DVD. You could arrange something like that for the US! Well, I'd want to do North America so that I could get Nick Woolsey.
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Re: Change of direction
Sun, June 27, 2004 - 10:21 PMI think both of you have very valid points.
But I think we should call it a Sex Act instead. That way, it is automatically protected against discrimination in California (although sadly, all veriations of fire-dancing would be outlawed in Texas, except face-to-face partner numbers with your spouse).
Here's the smiley.... ;-)
In seriousness, as a firedancer working in a venue that blurs the line between athletics and art (IE: Modern Circus) I can see the benefits of naming a thing a "sport". And any snowboarder can probably attest to the renewed feeling of justifiability that having a once-punk-urban-activity become an Olympic category.
But it is also noteworthy that the road from the renegade burn to the Olympic event is a looong and very very VERY tiresome one. Do we have it in us to do it? And what would be the end result? Will we see firedancing proliferate to the point of pop meaninglessness, like snowboarding did?
Yes, it would benefit the image of a firedancer for the artform to be considered a Sport. And many aspects of it can be qualified, like technique, delivery, etc. But it won't automatically win over the authorities, precisely because the Liability factor remains the same, no matter what you call a thing. In fact, the authorities might be more fearful of the legitimization of this passtime than any other, because of liability.
National Technical Competitions though, would be awesome. A similar thing happened with Hawaiian Fire-Knife Dancing a generation or two ago. It got turned into a Sport/Art hybrid (let's callit a SPART) and it became an established aprt of Polynesian culture, financial aid & everything.
Good thoughts skinko.
But I still insist we start callingit a Sex Act. :-)
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Re: Change of direction
Mon, June 28, 2004 - 2:32 AMAMEN! It's about time somebody brought this up! I've been thinking about starting a magazine about "the spinning arts" so I've been giving a lot of thought to models for how poi, fire, etc moves forward. Two of my favorite models have been skateboarding and figure skating.
Like skateboarding, we have an underground activity that communities of outsiders participate in. The equipment involved is minimal, it's considered dangerous, and to some, it's a meanace. This is what leads me to believe that documenting what's happening in the scene, attaching names to moves, and promoting people who are doing wonderful things in our sport/art will help us grow. It will also make it possible for some of the very serious people to maybe even make a living at it...
Like figureskating... there is an expressive element to spinning (with or without fire) that makes it more than a sport. Indeed, many people have different styles and there's a lot of subjectivity. There are moves that are highly technical that only people who do it really appreciate (quad axel vs triple in skating, 7bt vs 5bt weaves), and there are crowd-pleasing moves that are technically easy. In figure skaing, some of the biggest fans for world-class performers are young figure skaters.
That said, there are problems with the sport model. For example, as it's practiced today, poi spinning doesn't work the legs much, and the arms rather unevenly. So as a form of exercise, it's not all that great. And poi spinners today come at it from a variety of different influences and value different aspects of spinning. To agree on some sort of system for anything, let alone judging, would require years of work -- we can't even call moves the same names right now!
Anyone know if there's any truth to the rumor that Indian Club Swinging/Twirling used to be an Olympic sport?
Anyhow, just a few thoughts...
Roger/Orbit
PS - are you "Le Skunk" on HOP? That video was amazing... I'm working on those pendulum moves!
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Re: Change of direction
Mon, June 28, 2004 - 2:45 AMI had an idea a little while back for an "event" -- maybe at Burning Man, or maybe at some other poi gathering. It's kind of Iron Chef meets Fire Spinning. I call it the "Jedi Challenge"
A small team of bad-ass fire spinners picked for a broad range of skills, takes on all comers. Challengers bust out a move, and someone from the team has to match that move. Basically, my take is that if you're an arrogant bastard and think you're bad ass, you can come take on the truely bad assed Jedi council.
Admittedly, this is a very testosterone-fueled approach to it. I want to make sure that it's kept as a fun, friendly event, and I'm not sure this can happen. And well, honestly, I kind of decided that it might kill the more inclusive vibe that I really like when a lot of spinners get together. I'd rather we all just got inspired by each other and learned from each other.
So maybe the Jedi Challenge goes the other way around... when someone gets too obnoxiously arrogant, doesn't behave like a proper member of the community, etc... then you just challenge them and embarass them so they know that we all need to learn from each other.
At the end of the day, I want everyone to "get better" along whatever measures they choose... so whether that means they get more spiritual connection with their poi, that's cool... if that means they're better performers (in terms of appeal to audience, not just technical skill), or if that means technical skills. We are all beginners (got this idea from Forrest) compared to where poi spinners will be 10 years from now.
BUT... I think this is beyond the boundaries of the FAG. I think this is more for the Art of Poi tribe. Because FAG is about performers and organizing performers, whereas this discussion includes both amateurs (non-performers) and professionals. -
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Re: Change of direction
Wed, June 30, 2004 - 1:49 PMI would like to volunteer one white glove that you can borrow to slap the arrogant bastards faces side to side to mark the duel~~
we will all then form a circle around the two, in background I will beatbox to set the mood, and shit-talking will commence from the crowd as the breakers battle!
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Re: Change of direction
Thu, July 1, 2004 - 2:51 AMI'll bring the Victory Champagne. -
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Re: Change of direction
Fri, July 2, 2004 - 10:02 PMhere
here
YOU SUCKAS GOT SERVED!!!
jeeez I gotta stop watching so many cheesy movies ugghh
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