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(I was about to post this as a reply to the "Why a fire arts guild?" thread, but I think it is really its own topic.)
I think the big question here at this point is not *why* a Fire Arts Guild, but *how* a fire arts guild?
There are numerous compelling reasons why a guild would be a massive asset, as outlined in some of the posts in this thread. If put together and run well, as well given the power and respect needed to affect real change, it would seem that such a guild could drastically change the terrain for fire performers in this country and make both the practice and enjoyment of fire arts a safer and richer experience.
Clearly we all agree on this basic concept, so I guess my question is: Where do we start? What concrete actions need to be taken to birth such a beast? Who's committed to helping make this happen, on what level and in what ways?
I wish I were the person to kickstart this thread with more than just questions, but I know I'm not. I'm fairly new to the fire community (about a year), and I am fully aware that most of the answers I could throw out would likely be under-informed or half-formed. I do know there are some experienced and talented people here, though, and I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we could make this happen.
We can talk all year about why it ought to happen, but maybe it is now time to stop talking and instead start pulling together and working on it on a large scale.
Thoughts?
I think the big question here at this point is not *why* a Fire Arts Guild, but *how* a fire arts guild?
There are numerous compelling reasons why a guild would be a massive asset, as outlined in some of the posts in this thread. If put together and run well, as well given the power and respect needed to affect real change, it would seem that such a guild could drastically change the terrain for fire performers in this country and make both the practice and enjoyment of fire arts a safer and richer experience.
Clearly we all agree on this basic concept, so I guess my question is: Where do we start? What concrete actions need to be taken to birth such a beast? Who's committed to helping make this happen, on what level and in what ways?
I wish I were the person to kickstart this thread with more than just questions, but I know I'm not. I'm fairly new to the fire community (about a year), and I am fully aware that most of the answers I could throw out would likely be under-informed or half-formed. I do know there are some experienced and talented people here, though, and I'd love to hear some thoughts on how we could make this happen.
We can talk all year about why it ought to happen, but maybe it is now time to stop talking and instead start pulling together and working on it on a large scale.
Thoughts?
posted by:
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Fri, June 11, 2004 - 4:14 AM(I think this was a good call, to start a new thread.)
I'm very gratified that you feel this way, and that there does seem to be a rising tide of consensus on the issue. Your initiative is good enough reason for me to begin addressing this (I had made a personal note to begin this discussion at around five hundred members, if somebody else didn't beat me to it.)
However, this process, if is it to be successful, is going to involve a lot of people, with new ones continuously joining, so I think there is room to continue the Why?/purpose discussion concurrent with the How? discussion.
I'm proud that there's a very respectful-of-experience vibe in this tribe. However, that does *not* mean that I don't want *all* to feel free to throw out ideas. If they are not useful, we will cheerfully toss them aside - this is part of the creative process! As any good firedancer knows, anything worth doing is worth missing a few times first and collecting a few bruises for.
A good idea will gain traction, regardless of source.
Throw those ideas out! Maybe we'll all learn from your silliness, or be inspired by it.
thanks, Dyslexia, for taking the initiative and starting this thread.
I'm going to shift gears now and answer some other questions raised by this thread.
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(questions reposted from 1st vote thread)
Fri, June 11, 2004 - 4:55 AM> I'm an 11-year veteran of performing with fire, I've pretty legitimate professional experience, I have helped steer permit-legislation in 2 cities,
Thanks Marco, for joining us! your experience and wisdom is welcome. You'll likely find some old friends here, lurking about..
>and to my knowledge I am not a member of the Guild. Would this disqualify me as candidate for this tribe?
> If it's an actual Guild, maybe the tribe should be for Guild members... like the Fire Conclave newsletter is for the Fire Conclave members. > If there's a solid purpose and a well-stated platform to the Guild, then I suppose that will infer what the tribe membership should be about.
Our paradigm is actually the reverse of the conclave. They made a list to match a physical reality. We are trying to do something much more complex and long-lasting than the fire conclave:
We are preparing to make physical reality out of what we create online.
(I do know of what I speak - I came up with the conclave's first organizationional plan as it outgrew the practicality of direction by one person, around the turn of the century ;).
Everyone who comes to this forum is getting in on the ground floor, before any major decisions have been made - thats this tribe's purpose. We cannot claim grass-roots legitimacy if we do not invite the fire community to participate - and give them a reasonable chance to respond. Legitimacy and solidarity go hand in hand.
> What exactly is the purpose of the Fire-Artists-Guild tribe? And how does it differ from any other social groups that spin fire?
This is not a social group - or not primarily. This is the precursur to a guild - a place to define that solid purpose and well-stated platform (some How's there).
Don't expect me to write this stuff up alone and then try to impose it on the community. Thats already being attempted by others. All its gotten them so far is enmity.
> If the Guild preoccupies itself with concrete issues, like organizing technique classes, giving safety workshops, disseminating information on professional resources, or lobbying for creating fair fire-permit legislation, then it should be a members-only, business-only forum, for the sake of efficiency.
This is certainly simliar to my vision of what a guild should look like. (Although in a democratic process one person's vision does not dictate).
Are you suggesting that, once the guild is launched, we will need a dedicated forum -perhaps off tribe, on a dedicated site - that will be members-only?
> ((I mean, what do you actually get, when you're part of this tribe? I've never properly learned a firedance move off the internet... although I have gathered much valuable safety and legal information, and discovered wonderful new artists whom I'd otherwise never meet. I've also created very positive relations with people for "real-time" learning of firedance techniques. None of these treasures required my membership in anyting.))
My experience of the uses and limitations of the internet have been similar. But this tribe is for a new & different purpose: to create, for the first time, a guild which draws its strength from carefully- and respectfully-garnered grass roots support and participation. This takes effort, and patience.
The fact that while we are having the key debates, this tribe also provides a bit of a forum for people to discuss some of the finer points of the art -as well as the occasional naked fart-lighting pic- is a happy bonus.
> Dyslexia posted a Topic on this tribe, entitled: << Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why >> And in it she posed the questions of the Guild's purpose, and issues, and concrete means.
>No one has replied. In 3 weeks.
What does that say?
I think it says three things:
1) the Guild's *purposes* are already being addressed on another thread - the one that Dyslexia referred to: "Why a Fire Arts Guild".
2) that we all get busy sometimes - but some of these learned lurkers ought to get off their duffs (well, OK technically *on* them) and participate a bit more! this is not -cannot be- a solo project! Do not wait for someone else to do this. *You* are the guild.
3) that we are approaching the time to discuss means. Its a somewhat weighty discussion.
Creating a guild is not a process that will happen overnight (unless you try to skip the democracy part). I envision several broad steps in this process. Some have been and will be triggered by the status of our growth, some will be triggered because somebody takes initiative, some will be triggered by outside challenges.
We are in this for the long haul.
D'you know what it took to unionize coal miners? or organize the Screen Actor's Guild? Its my opinion that fire performers are *far* more difficult to organize... As you may have noticed, we tend to be a colorful, independent-minded bunch. The phrase "herding cats" comes to mind. And other, less printable phrases. [With love! I say it with love! (just joshing....)] -
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Re: (questions reposted from 1st vote thread)
Tue, June 22, 2004 - 11:34 AMAlright I finally got off/on my duff and am participating. I have not read all or even most of the why, yet but will try. Hey Marco long time no see.
So, how not why:
Seattle had a very successful program with our fire marshalls. We paid $200 yearly for a permit that was made for us. (the first year they gave us a bbq permit but it has progressed since then). The key seemed to be defining different tools and standardizing terms. IE static vs dynamic tools. tools you swing and could fly away from you were dynamic, tools you hold and have little or no chance of flying away (even if they break) are static.
Static tools
palms, fingers, fans(questionable), eating
Dynamic
poi, hoops, staff,
then rules were established for each type. 4ft from audience for static, 15ft for dynamic.
Thats just a start but creating definitions for each item and explaining them will help nation wide.
It's the same for fire safety, what kind of fuels to use. I've noticed in the Bay Area a love for white gas. This is concidered a class one fuel. and is very dangerous compared to Lamp oil.
Lamp oil may smell bad, but it is unlikly to explode even if smoking a cigerette over it. In Seattle we were not allowed to use white gas for our tools. we could mix 25% WG and 75% LO.
This is just a start, wanted to see people rection. I know that too much definition starts to become boring, and difficult to deal with so there are things that should be left out.
Tabasco
PS FAG - Maybe Fire Performers Guild instead:)
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Fri, June 11, 2004 - 12:31 PMHi Dyslexia!
Well, I didn't want to be the 1st to reply after I'd mentioned your post in the voting section, so I'm glad that Organizizer chimed in with those good points. Thanks dood.
I believe that my opinion is similar to most, regarding what the Guild might be good for on a practical level. SO let's take a look at some issues (the WHY) and see a HOW that might be put into action. For example:
*PROBLEM*: San Francisco has a very draconian fire-permit policy right now. The only business that has a seasonal permit is Ruby Skye, and only under the control of Earth Circus. It's lovely if you work with Earth Circus and want to burn at Ruby Skye (which I've done many times), but it limits the artform unfairly, and it cripples other venues by denying them their right to do a safe and professional fireshow. I mean, you can GET a one-off permit for your show, but it's a lot of hoops to jump through and you might still get denied last minute, ruining your cred as a fire-artist. How did it get this way? Answer: Many renegade burners pissing off the authorities by doing dangerous and uncontrolled shows without permits. The bridge to the Fire Chief was literally burned.
*ANSWER*: A Guild of dedicated fire-artists might look at existing SF fire-code, brush up on their firefighter-speak, and in a tight and legal language create a proposal for reforming the permit-granting process. For example, a COURSE might be suggested, in which a firefighter is in attendance as one of the instructors, in fire safety and responsibility. After such a course, all who took it get a "license", and only those with licenses can do paid gigs in the city, their permits become yearly instead of one-show-only, and they just have to check with the Fire Chief's office whenever they're doing a new show.
A process like that could help establish a professional credibility in the fire circles, and truly smooth out the process of getting a gig. Sure it's a headache, but without that kinda effort, things don't get done.
This problem isn't only in San Francisco. In Las Vegas, FORGET doing fire at a small venue, and in LA you get a huge runaround by the FD. A similar crisis was taking place in Seattle as I was exiting my 7-year stay in that beautiful city, and I remember a great community effort to open better lines of communication between the fire-artists and the Fire Chief. That kind of work is what is necessary to help propagate the artform in a responsible manner. Otherwise, we're all stuck doing punk-shows for free.
Which is not bad, but we should have greater options.
Any thoughts? Other concrete HOW's?
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Fri, June 11, 2004 - 12:38 PMHi Dyslexia!
Well, I didn't want to be the 1st to reply after I'd mentioned your post in the voting section, so I'm glad that Organizizer chimed in with those good points. Thanks dood.
I believe that my opinion i_birthday_format=MM/dd/yyyyyyyy -
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Fri, June 11, 2004 - 1:16 PMI personaly would say as in all new ventuers look to those who have done it well. this would be one two levels here.
1) other guilds what is there orginizational structuer? what are there guidlines to be a member and what exactly to they offer there members? Due to the unique elemnts of this art It seems only natural that there may need to be a state by state "represenative" and in larger areas like LA, SF etc multiples. Basicly liasions with fire authoritys, and representitives in political forums. However the nitty gritty of pulling that off?
2) How and what works as a liason legaly and politicaly... again look to who has done in sucsessfully. I again am newer to this art.... I am not familiar whith what groups in what states have done well in this forum of political and legalliasion with officals. I do feel the atmosphere here in AZ is rather friendly and even more so in Tucson... Flam Chen has worked very hard to keep a good relationship not only with the fire marshal here but also with other groups offering saftey and leagl info freely offering there saftey guidelines on line to all who may perform even lending equipment ... after all this type of attitued helps us all we have a fire marshall happy to meet with artists permits are accesable and shows go well. AND this attitued interestingly enough in the Tucson fire community seems to make us very unwilling to break laws or do rogue shows.... after all the path has been paved we do not wish to mess that up. Were not perfect but from what I hear we not doing to bad either... and I am sure there are many other wonderfull examples of united fire communitys around the US I would say follow there lead.
Historacly it seems guilds and unions have similar purpouses to be a liasion either with political agencys etc or employers, to set a standard of benfits pay quality etc, to garner special group benifits as a whole for those involved (ie. med ins etc) to unify so that there voice is a powerfull presence.
just my 2 cents
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Fri, June 11, 2004 - 7:20 PMFeel compelled to begin by saying - it's *so* refreshing to hear so many good ideas being suggested, and so many great points brought up.
My first suggestion is in regard to workshops. I'm sure that, given a space in which to do it (usually the most difficult part of organizing fire practice) different cities could bring in artists from the guild, as well as guest artists, who specialize in tool construction, performance, safety, etc and who would be willing to hold classes on these. We've had this going on at our Monday night space for a while and it's pretty fun.
On the note of safety - the company I buy my fire safety equipment from holds exciting and comprehensive seminars on fire safety. Some of the things covered in the class are: the different flash and flame points for different fuels; how to use the different types of extinguishers and which ones are used for which types of fire; different brands of extinguisher, including the really crappy ones which should never be used (Kidde); and at the end, they light up a big trough of fuel and each person chooses an extinguisher and puts out the fire. And as exciting as spinning fire is, it is a HUGE rush to put out a blazing inferno. And they're willing to come out to your practice space and hold the seminar there. Perhaps each chapter of the fire arts guild could work with their local fire safety guys, who are also in touch with the fire departments of their respective cities.
Just my two Iraqi dinars.... -
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Sat, June 12, 2004 - 7:31 PMOOOH fun!!!! Where do I sign up? SERIOUSLY.
Could you set up like a group-class for the FireGuild members interested? I'd definitely go. Seems like an awesome investment, especially if you get some form of safety "diploma" or other accreditation at the end.
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Mon, June 21, 2004 - 11:14 PMWe could set one up, it's just a matter of where and when. It'd be great if we could get as many people there as possible, and for the ones who can't make it there for that one, we could repeat it periodically which might be a good thing if more and more people join up to this tribe....What are your thoughts? -
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Mon, June 28, 2004 - 9:20 AMI will add my ideas of "how" here, I'm still thinking.......
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Tue, August 24, 2004 - 5:36 AMYAY!!!
I know we tried to tackle this issue a couple of years ago and from that the NAFAA (national fire arts association) was kind of created but maintainance has been underpar.
I think the value..would be safety and fuel standards as well as a directory of sorts for places to go to learn from ole timers..IE people involved with the art for more that 5 years and more specifically those who have spent at least half of their fire career teaching others.
I agree with Tabasco about fuel...this mixture I have found is the safest and the seattle permitting requirments are fair. Lving in italy were ther is virtually no rules whatso ever I am now considered a safety nazi becasue I suggest and demand even the simplest things like burn cream and a fire extinguisher...and they still use Kero...ewe...A guild could provide information worldwide on cheap safe and cleaner fuel ideas...
Another thing a guild would be good for is utilizing it;s member ship to research and publish the local laws and what not to make travel easier...Or if you go to a place to do a show and there is no previous experience..publishing the laws of said place...
To go further...
Artist exchange...if I go somewhere I want to work with the local crew. Share ideas and talent. It is what we are trying to accomplish here in italy..Fabri's dream is for the association to be strictly a world center for fire arts...and slowly we are realizing starting with the workshop and italy immersion...but we want to go further...We want to host guest teachers...intensives in particular tools...
Cooperative buying
guild discounts for supplies..buying at cost...in bulk like a cooperative...distributed locally...only the safest parts...and the safest fabrics and the best tested wick...
Accredidation....
this is a touchy subject but really important...We need a strong teaching base...or we will keep having newbie mishaps...collective bargaining could keep the price of instruction low but aslo pay the teachers for their time...Instructor training could be arranged...I have been teaching for 5 years and developed techniques I am happy to share...Tabasco, Tedward build steelar and safe tools for sale...the should be accredited...they have consitently set the standard for tool making... Someone metnioned earlier that a companuy offered intensive safety courses...they should be accredited... There are enough of us who have been doing this long enough to know the right people and places to go to learn and be safe.
Tool Building...
I want to support tabasco and tedward..but I also want to know how to build my own tools...I am happy to pay the same to have tabasco teach me and in return I send business his way...I want to help sustain these guys but tool building is an important part of being an artist. These guys are the best...I will shout that from the mountain top..I also like renegade..their tools are strong and last a long time.
Space...
This has been tried in seattle...and I hope we keep trying...major fire centers Like Seattle, San francisco..need fire art centers..a guild would be effective in making this happen...Ignis seperately, Cirque de flambe seperate ly, Pyrosutra seperately have all tried and failed...if we attempted as a guild to do this..I know it would happen...and not just some shoddy old warehouse...we have a buetiful space here in italy equipped with a special dance floor, ballet bars, mirrors, a shower, fridge, chill out space, and always available supply of tools and implements for practicing and building and fixing shit.. why can't we have this in the major fire centers in other parts of the world...if we did we could start a collective of guild centers that exchanged ideas, and people...with little to no cost..
We need to let go of our egos...
Guild building can be a humbling process..I have to be able to admit that if I want a fire hoop..I should buy it from Tabasco instead of making one myself...If I want to learn contact staff it will go easier for me IF I ask for HELP. I have to admit that when I first got into it I was just as much as a snob as the rest of em...but after almost 7 years..I find that community is paramount to the artistic process and maintaining it's long journey forwards as a valid expression of art..to do this I need to ask for help..and I need to recognize those who came before me..or those who are simply better at said process. WE need to honor our elders...that is the truth. We need to play nice with eachother...and share..share share share...it will only make the art better. I need the people I teach to know that they are safe..why?? becasue I worked the last 7 years to make sure they would be..and if I can't answer their questions I ned to send them to some one who will...we need a communication structure between our elders that is respectful and validates the long term commitment.
POlitical and administrative..
A guild if could provide a face to lobby our locals to make better permitting regulations. Lobby insurance companies to protect us and our audience. Administratively...well a one stop shop for questions in the process...how do I advertise? How do I set up a non profit? What should I charge for my services? Where do I get insurance? Class schedule? I want to tracel to germany..where do I get fuel are there other spiiners there??
Cost...
Guild shouold charge dues...period. Not expensive but not cheap either...paying for a service shows commitment to the community...payment could be made in volunteer time..but money would be neccessary to maintain local fire centers. I calculate my time based on a equation of 15 per hour plus cost of supplies...15 an hour is a living wage but not greedy. I add ten to that for private students casue I use the extra ten to supply the neccesary ingrediants and the cost goes down a little for groups like 10 an hour. In exchange for sues we offer easy access to this information, knowledge to our member ship that they are buying or taking classes from time trusted sources. I would be willing to pay up to 25 a month for guild membership. Times that by the fire population of seattle and we could have a well equipped center for fire arts. I could teach my classes on a special floor that wont kill peoples needs. I could focus just on technique and send my students to the special fire safety intensive. The red cross could hold monthly basic first aid and safety classes. We could even have a Seattle fire department liason..equipped with all the neccessary paper work for fire peeps to fill out. To do that we need to pour our money into it and our time.
What we do here...
We rent the space out to other arts..belly dance, capoiera, tai chi and a modern dance school...40% of the money I make teaching fire intensives goes to the association. 50% of what I make performing goes to the association. The members of "Lumen" (the performance group here)also pay a monthly fee of 20 euro to the association and everyone associated with the association pays a membership fee of 30 a year. When I come back to the states the association honors my participation by paying me 20% of any techniques they offer or use that I taught them. Plus I now own 10% profit sharing..(yeah right a profitable arts org). and will recieve another 2 percent a year up to 20%. All members of lumen are required to take the three courses..Basic Poi, Advanced Poi, and the Fire immersion which includes fire safety, fuel info, staff, batons, eating, blowing and we also offer instructor training and certification. We have a healthy stock of poi, staff, wands, fans, and any other immaginable toys to practice with. We have a complete selection of tools for building and we always have wick, chain, finger holders, split key rings , screws, nuts, bolts, aluminum tubes for staff and all that stuff. We haev partnered with a local fabric warehouse who gives us a discount on fabric we need for shows as long as we give em a mention. WE created relationships with music, media an metal artists to help us with our conceptual ideas. We have a sewing machine, intenet access. We always keep fuel on site and now we have pretty decent safety equipment. We also have a kickass sterosytem and a wide variety of music to play..(my favorite for teaching is any of the Buddha bar compilations just a side note). We host other intensives most recently Makulele a form of capoiera where teachers traveled from Sardinia for the weekend and soon we will go there to teach them fire. We met a girl in one of our sessions who rocks the poi and have invited her back to teach. We have an accountant and an unsalaried staff of four including myself. When in session (sept -june_ we meet once a week like a veritable little coorporation. We still have our struggles like burn out but we respect eachothers boundaries and we believe in what we are doing...this could be you in seattle, in sanfrancisco, in Tuscan..in ney york...
Whew..that was a lot...ok that is my 184837 cents...Italy has been a good learning experience for me..Italy is still a clean slate when it comes to fire...the association is this beautiful space for fire artists of the world to utilize if we can make it happen...and I want to come back to seattle and do the same...
Ciao Ragazzi!!
Donia
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Tue, August 24, 2004 - 5:44 AMps..we even partnered with a local vagetarian caterer to provide us with meals at 8 bucks a head....nice when you have late rehersals and classes during lunch time. hmmmm italian food.... -
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Tue, August 24, 2004 - 5:55 AMsorry I am on a roll here..I am just very excited about this topic....
I am willing to give my time to this when I get back to Seattle..in fact in my personal fire path I have found that I love teaching and creating a space for fire art and assisting other artists.
Funding Ideas..
well get a group of likeminded peeps together and first start by scrounging up your pennies..see what you got
then...
Apply for grants from local orgs...
then...
BRaf (black rock arts foundation) wants to give money away to communities....Fire Arts Centers would be a good place to put some of that money don't you think.
then...fundraisers
then...ask your rich friends to give you money
The big question is though...who decides the mission and rules and bylaws and what not of the guild??
answer...
Longstanding members of the community with input from the newbies. But be warned...don't spend all your life deciding this...just do it and make the rules, common sense dictates most of this..backed up by well researched scientific fact (ie proper fuels). At this point you have to be ok with conflict and understand that you will not please everyone..but just do it and be kind and respectful and the rest will come around...look to other orgs as a role model...The Burningman org I think would be a good one...ask them for help.
My own personal oppinion that a democratic structure gets shit done far quicker then consensus.
Ok ..I might have more in a couple of minutes...
Ciao
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Re: Fire Arts Guild: How, Not Why
Sat, October 30, 2004 - 2:43 PMDonia,
I'm sorry for not reading your posts until now...had that big thing in the desert going on you know.
I'm suprised to see that there have been no other responses. I think there are some great ideas presented here and I hope to see this type of thing happen very soon here in Seattle. There are so many of us that want the same thing - if we can just get past the egos, politics and mistrust, we could do amazing things...indoors!...with heat!...and mirrors!
