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here are some of my reasons:
1. Safety - two main thoughts:
a) fire & the law - there should be a conduit for working fire artists to have input into whatever regulation is imposed on us.
Speaking as individuals, we can create relationships with fire officials, and this is good - it can affect the way a given law is interpreted. Speaking as an "industry" (yeah, I know, that hardly begins to describe us, but thats the terminology that will get their attention) we can influence the makeup of the law itself! there is power in numbers.
b) promoting safe practices - a group with sufficient grass-roots support, once it reaches consensus on safety issues, can do a lot of good in promoting those standards, without resorting to draconian measures.
For example, when someone is taking safety a bit lightly, and hears one person voice an objection - or two people saying different, contradictory things - he's not likely to listen. But when he hears the same consistent thing from several different peers, hes more likely to stop and listen.
2. Insurance & permits -
Here again, a numbers- (and reputation-) advantage can create opportunities - group insurance policies are much cheaper than individual ones. Working as a group, we can also have a positive effect on the terms of these policies and on gov't permit proceedures as well. The key is consensus.
3. Learning -
Among fire-dancers, I see a lot of people learning bad habits that they may regret later, that will hold them back, slow down their learning curve.
I see a lot of people teaching, that aren't truly ready to be teaching, at least not at the skill level they claim. But who can blame them ? at present they have no support, no group setting an example, many have no training. no standard safety proceedures to refer to. (tho some have -laudably- made up their own)
I see a lot of people learning from the internet, instead of learning from a living person thats right there to spot oversights, to demonstrate, to encourage, to interact in real-time.
I see a lot of people that want to learn, but can't find someone in their area thats qualified. These people have to deal with crappy choices: either substandard - perhaps unsafe - learning conditions, or simply being patient indefinitely, waiting to bump into someone they can learn from confidently. Precious few have the patience and self-discipline to wait very long! (kudos to those that do!)
All of these people deserve better. A guild could make a real difference.
4. Support -
As with any other kind of performer, we can be subject to lousy working conditions - unsafe, unsanitary, exploitive. Even if you've chosen to work for free, you still have a right to decent working conditions. As a group, we can also work effectively toward better standards in these areas. For you sculptors, I'm not sure how this issue translates. But if you're thinking of taking your work on the road, or working with travelling performers it is entirely germaine.
5. Respect -
Our art form deserves respect. We work just as hard to perfect our art as musicians, DJs, dancers, and in the case of you sculptors, of artists who are getting corporate & government commissions. We deserve just as much consideration as they do. The experience of many other fields shows that by supporting each other through the consensus-building mechanism of a guild, we can have it.
This is by no means all my thoughts on the subject.
But I'd really like to hear from y'all. What would *you* like to see from a fire arts guild?
1. Safety - two main thoughts:
a) fire & the law - there should be a conduit for working fire artists to have input into whatever regulation is imposed on us.
Speaking as individuals, we can create relationships with fire officials, and this is good - it can affect the way a given law is interpreted. Speaking as an "industry" (yeah, I know, that hardly begins to describe us, but thats the terminology that will get their attention) we can influence the makeup of the law itself! there is power in numbers.
b) promoting safe practices - a group with sufficient grass-roots support, once it reaches consensus on safety issues, can do a lot of good in promoting those standards, without resorting to draconian measures.
For example, when someone is taking safety a bit lightly, and hears one person voice an objection - or two people saying different, contradictory things - he's not likely to listen. But when he hears the same consistent thing from several different peers, hes more likely to stop and listen.
2. Insurance & permits -
Here again, a numbers- (and reputation-) advantage can create opportunities - group insurance policies are much cheaper than individual ones. Working as a group, we can also have a positive effect on the terms of these policies and on gov't permit proceedures as well. The key is consensus.
3. Learning -
Among fire-dancers, I see a lot of people learning bad habits that they may regret later, that will hold them back, slow down their learning curve.
I see a lot of people teaching, that aren't truly ready to be teaching, at least not at the skill level they claim. But who can blame them ? at present they have no support, no group setting an example, many have no training. no standard safety proceedures to refer to. (tho some have -laudably- made up their own)
I see a lot of people learning from the internet, instead of learning from a living person thats right there to spot oversights, to demonstrate, to encourage, to interact in real-time.
I see a lot of people that want to learn, but can't find someone in their area thats qualified. These people have to deal with crappy choices: either substandard - perhaps unsafe - learning conditions, or simply being patient indefinitely, waiting to bump into someone they can learn from confidently. Precious few have the patience and self-discipline to wait very long! (kudos to those that do!)
All of these people deserve better. A guild could make a real difference.
4. Support -
As with any other kind of performer, we can be subject to lousy working conditions - unsafe, unsanitary, exploitive. Even if you've chosen to work for free, you still have a right to decent working conditions. As a group, we can also work effectively toward better standards in these areas. For you sculptors, I'm not sure how this issue translates. But if you're thinking of taking your work on the road, or working with travelling performers it is entirely germaine.
5. Respect -
Our art form deserves respect. We work just as hard to perfect our art as musicians, DJs, dancers, and in the case of you sculptors, of artists who are getting corporate & government commissions. We deserve just as much consideration as they do. The experience of many other fields shows that by supporting each other through the consensus-building mechanism of a guild, we can have it.
This is by no means all my thoughts on the subject.
But I'd really like to hear from y'all. What would *you* like to see from a fire arts guild?
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Mon, November 10, 2003 - 2:29 PMI want to have classes, community and support. I help found a local Silicon Valley Fire Spinners group which is turning out to be great -- for people who spin poi -- I am learning staff and find myself at a stagnant point because there is no one to support me. I think your ideas are right on and I'm looking forward to seeing this grow.
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Wed, November 19, 2003 - 6:31 PMJohn,
I have taken all of your points to heart. I am a beginner spinner of poi and even in the short time I have been a member of the community I have seen a huge difference in how individual fire artist treat the fire. Some are soooooo lax and other totally react with instinctual fear and overstate the danger. Education would be a fabulous output of the guild building effort.
I would love to see more accessible infomation on fuel toxicities, a guide to provide ways for people to decrease thier risks, and most of all a forum where experience and knowledgable people can squash the rumors of the fearful and yet warn the overly couragous and zealous.
Lobbying for permits and other benefits would be well worth our while as well.
I'm in. What do you need me to do? -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Wed, November 19, 2003 - 8:22 PMI would like to see a standard check list/guide consisting of permit and device definitions, types of permits/insurances required for public performances, maybe some kind of form to hand to the local authorities or powers to be, that defines what exactly a fire performance is, permission/permits needed, and other information in general.... I fortunatly, have a great mentor who helps make myself and other beginners/novices in my region, make safe choices in all aspects of the fire arts.
AND YES, THE USE OF KEYRINGS ATTACHED TO AND KIND OF FIRE DEVICE SHOULD BE BANNED AND STRICTLY ENFORCED BY ALL OTHER FIRE PERFORMERS IN CONTACT WITH SOMEONE WHO MIGHT THINK "THEY'RE STRONG ENOUGH TO HOLD" -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Thu, November 20, 2003 - 9:27 AMFor what it's worth, there are different kinds/strengths of key rings. I've seen ones that almost instantly rip apart, even though they look almost as thick as stronger ones. The ones I use now are purchased from a fishing shop and are rated to be stronger. I check my equipment regularly. I find it's pretty damned obvious which rings won't hold. Some people also double-up their rings. DON'T BAN THE RINGS, JUST BAND THE IDIOTS! -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Thu, November 20, 2003 - 8:08 PMRight, ban the idiots, after breaking their key-ring bound toys for them and throwing them down the street after them.
Just like it's *true* that you *can* extinguish lit props in pure kerosene, it's bad form because new folks who don't know the difference ignite fuel dumps when they stupidly try the same trick in a mixed fuel dump.
Same thing with keyrings. How many folks do you know who, in their excitement to begin working with fire, take a cursory look at someone else's tools and make their own? If it's okay for you, and you obviously know what you're doing...
...If the next Great White happens from a fire performer,
kiss your stage time bye-bye.
Besides, keyrings = no respect from fire officials, who already have no reason to like you unless you play their way.
Keyringed props *will not* pass inspection. Even if kinda burly. They have no mechanical strength beyond the coil of the wire, which weakens with every use. Metal fatigue is hard to tell when covered in carbon, and you only find out when your wick goes hurling into the audience.
buy threaded carabiners-
they're less than a buck each at most hardware stores. -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Thu, November 20, 2003 - 11:10 PMWhatever dude... For one thing, my chain isn't wide enough for the threaded carabiners/quick-links to go through, so I need to have something in between... and then I'll get grief from the people who think that the quick-links are unreliable. For my mostly recreational use, I'm not terribly concerned about passing inspection, and I know mine are strong enough... Generally I find that people will ask a few questions before making their own tools, and I always talk about the strength of the rings -- since I've watched weaker ones open over just a couple of spins.
I've seen some "professionals" do some things that I've considered pretty damned stupid/unprofessional, so I'm sure everyone can find ways of improving. -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Fri, November 21, 2003 - 5:52 AMIn my oppinion, I think your point of everyone finding ways of improving is exactly the point of disgussions like this....
I have personally, and purposly, tried to find strong key rings for a set of practice pio I made, after about 40 spins, I saw a bright yellow tennis ball go flying into the wild blue yonder. Just a suggestion, if you can't get the bulky threaded end of a 1/8"dia. quick link through your chain. Take a file and file off the threads on one side, this should make it small enough to fit into your chain and still allow the coupling to close and tighten down.
We all make our props differently, this is true, but some things (other peoples safety above our own)should be taken into consideration when we make them. And we should all be open to new ideas from other people that help us improve the reputation of the art form.
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Fri, November 21, 2003 - 6:30 AMMy issue with key rings isn't them bending open, but actually working their way off. This has happened to me twice. Fortunately, both times were during practice. After the first time I thought that was really strange. When it happened a second time, I swore off key rings forever. I spin heavy heads with a lot of force. I grimaced at the thought of a spectator catching one in the face. Of course, many still use key rings. And when they do, I assume a defensive posture just in case they let one fly. -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Fri, November 21, 2003 - 12:16 PMOkay, first of all, I can't believe I'm being made to look like the reckless one here... I'm a LOT more careful than most of the spinners I've seen, and I've certainly put a lot more thought into it than usual.
Do you REALLY take a defensive posture when someone else spins?!? Give me a break! This is just ridiculous rhetorical drama. If we're all that concerned about safety, shouldn't we all be using wrist straps so our poi don't go flying off by accident?!? -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Fri, November 21, 2003 - 1:22 PMSorry you've taken such offense. I don't think there are any accusations of recklessness being presented here. It's a discussion about the use of key rings, not a personal attack on anyone. If you've used them successfully, keep on doing so. If you haven't used them, but are considering them, these are just some personal accounts to keep in mind. True, the "defensive posture" is exaggeration on my part...I tend to do that. But honestly, if I see someone spinning with key rings, I take note of it and probably take a few steps back even though it's highly unlikely one will fail. Call me over-cautious.
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Sat, November 22, 2003 - 2:19 AM
Quik Links are an excellent substitute for key rings, and it saves one the trouble of finding just the 'right' key rings. These days, I keep a few extra links in my pocket when I go to practice, just in case I run into a firedancer whose chains are in danger of falling apart. -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Sun, November 23, 2003 - 12:12 PMI actually have close to 20 quicklinks in my poi-making kit, as I meant to have poi-making workshops at Burning Man (but somehow...). Anyhow, they were the smallest size available at Home Despot, which I believe are 3.5 mm (?). Anyhow, I saw that a friend had some from Home of Poi which were 3 mm, smaller than what I've got, AND, small enough to fit my chain. Anyone know where I can find that size here in the US? -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Sun, November 23, 2003 - 5:46 PMThere seem to be a lot of different standards for measuring quik links. Sometimes they're sold by length (ie 2 5/16 ") and sometimes they're measured by the thickness of the wire (3.2, 3.5 mm). If 3.2 mm quik links aren't thin enough to do the trick for you, you might consider the pear-shaped quik links <a href="www.pionusparrot.com/Hardwar...</a>. It's shown right next to a 3.5 mm link for comparison, and it's the thinnest one I've been able to find.
What kind of chain are you using?
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Sun, December 7, 2003 - 10:11 AMWow. This sounds like the beginnings of a great unified front to support the fire arts. I do believe that a good relationship w/ fire marshalls is key to smooth sailing performances. I agree with what J has to say about safety as any fire accident affects the whole fire community. Our group Fire arts collective is getting fire insurance as individuals and we carry our MSDS fuel sheets so if there is an accident we have proper info for fire and medical people, most fire marshalls require this anyway. I have seen 2 fairly bad fire spinning accidents and want learn from what i saw, there is no compromise when it comes to safety. A second or two can mean the difference between a 2nd or 3rd degree burn. I am glad there is this discussion and attention to this important issue. Kali -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Sun, December 7, 2003 - 11:25 AMYou know, my troupe has never ONCE been asked to see a MSDS sheet for the fuel we use (parafin lamp oil for breathing, Coleman white gas for everything else). But it is a great idea to have those on hand, just in case. I know we have them, I'll just have to make sure they make it into our kit. -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Sat, December 27, 2003 - 10:20 PMWow what thread.This is the 3rd guild i have joined in the past three years.I would like to see one of these guilds get off the ground the others died as fast as they were born. Fire performers need a voice and the ONLY way that will happen is if all of us pull toghter. Other groups call it lobbying.I dont think I have ever meet any fire performer who knows it all.a guild is a great place to to gain the experiance and knowlage of everyone involed.
Setting Standards by a group and by proven fact not opinion. then taking our standards and freely offering them to anyone who wants them.
I dont know about the rest of you but Ill be pissed if I cant do fire because someone who doesnt care or didnt have the resource to gain good proven and quailfied info, fucks up and kills a bunch of people like great white or whatever thoose nimrods names were.
This key ring debate is a great example of what i am talking about.so far i have only seen opinions I havent anyone state the fact of what the load limit of a key ring is ( by the way there is none)I havent seen anyone state what wieght load is on a poi or any fire tool being spun.I have seen people use the "right key ring" and it has lastest for years. I have seen another guy buy that same exact ring and because his style of spinning is harder and more aggarsive he breaks it the 1st night.
Hell I even have a set of poi with rings on them that i spin at the beach from time to time.
As " MY " rule of thumb for my troupe no perfomer goes on stage til I check his or her gear. With my name being listed as the owner I am responcable for anything that happens.Buy the way i always do it when the promoter or venue owner is looking they eat the stuff up.No performer uses key rings on stage I have a rule of all hardware must have a load limit stamped into it by the manufacter.It also helps that i make all the gear for my troupe.I myself dont know what the wieght load of a spinning poi head is but i set the guide to have nothing with a load limit less than 220 lbs. which is the load limit for a good 1/8th quick link. what always gets me is the guys with quick links and a chain that only has a 40 lb load limit.
I promote safe and legal fire performing and that is what I teach.do i stick to that? nope i fall short time to time doing a burn and run as I like to call them a quick show with out a permit.
Just think if a guild did take off.and some desk jockey writes an insane law about open flame performing , and who ever is the rep for the guild contacts this person saying he repersents
700 or 1000 fire perfromers and voters do you think this desk jockey would listen ? I do.
if you think this might be far fetched just look into the new fire laws for texas see what happened there .because WE (fire perfomers ) had no voice in the matter.
There are so many pluses to a guild I could type for days the one I like the most is for travling say I have a show in your town Russell hell all I need to do is call you because your in the guild and agreed to set guidelines( that is an expamle)I know that we do things in the same manner hence i will know what you tell me about your citys fire laws and how to conform to them would more than likely be correct. Plus knowing your a guild memembr and in a troupe chance are high you know the loacl fire marshell.he wont know me or my troupe but he wil know the guild and its local members so when I call him for a permitt things will prob go alot smoother
what do you think would happen if a rep for a guild went to an insurance company with its 1000 members and asked for insurnace plan that was worth a crap.do you think that agent might work a little harder in finding one ? I do
Just to quailify myself seeing I just joined i have owned a fire troupe for 3 years.we have had nothing major happen in that time , even the stuff that did my crew handled before most even knew what happened.I belivie that happened is because we thought about ,just about anything that can happen will sooner or later and sat down and made a plan on how to handle it.
I also manufactor fire tools. since retiring as a pro performer
I am doing that more full time.I have done my research on my products in doing that I learned alot of other stuff on the way.
I am glad to be a part of this group and look forward to watching it grow.
I have never been asked for MSDS sheet either prob because i just hand them to the fire marshell along with my burn plan when I apply for a permitt
Be safe and burn bright
Randy aka Riz
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Fri, January 2, 2004 - 12:04 PMHi simply Hi!
Lori (playa name BetsyFord) here, I just joined in last night and am totally stoked to have found you.
We are so young in the fire world in Canada (Vancouver) and are learning so much from around the world ... it makes for some solid starting ground thats for sure. It is a small community that is growing fast! we have a few folks teaching, a few others building toyz and many joining in the performance world.
I am totally with JV on the safety train. We brought the first CND Conclave to BM this year and Wow! I learned alot! Which stands out the most is the Safety Workshop for Fire Tech's. This past solstice I tech'd for a show that is the graduation from a poi spinning class. The teachers in Vancouver are awesome. but thier students tend to be more focused on the "performance" aspect and their eyes glaze over in "Safety Land".
Over the last three years, we are seeing an exponential growth of the fire community & its starting to get me nervous. I want to start providing a "hard core safety" workshop that can assist the teachers in Vancouver. I am wondering if anyone here may connect me with SafetyBitch ( i think she is in Seattle) or someone who was involved in putting on the Fire Tech workshop at BM.
I also sell toyz online and started out wanting to help CNDs find affordable wick, but demand for toyz premade got me into making them. I include a "learn before you burn" info sheet with products purchased and have been really focused on well made toyz with sturdy parts, but having read this thread i am looking into moving away from the key rings.
We are so much a "Self Policing industry" up here, we dont seem to have any regulations or liabilities imposed on us ... yet ... Our biggest challenge is convincing venues to allow indoor shows. To be able to illustrate we are meeting an "Industry Standard" would help us get indoors and help ensure fire performers are educated on & maybe even meet "Industry Safety Standards"
That's a quick one on what I would like to see ... Thanks so much for sharing knowledge *(*
Lori
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Thu, January 22, 2004 - 9:06 AMHi From GiGi
Im in AZ and I suppose were a bit more orginized and together with our fire laws down here... at least thats my impression from reading here and other places. Though I have to credit that to Flam Chen they have been the birthing place and support for so many of the fire arts people here. They taught us saftey, introduced us tothe fire marshal have let equipment they inform us of the laws here and help other performers get things like flamex ... how lucky we are here. Here guiedlines are pretty clear but the fire marshalls here have been working with a major fire troupe for 12 years or so.... that gives alot of background. I would never consider doing an illegal show here as I would worry it would harm other performers in my area.... however not all performances requier fire marshall approval here. If its on private property like a house party not red tape.... public events thats diffrnet.
Oh and our poi standard out here quick links wrenched down prior to any burn. We happen to use steel ball chain. The only place I have seen keyrings used is on my kids practice poi to adjust length its not even used to secure the chain. -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Thu, January 22, 2004 - 10:27 AMHi Gigi,
"I would never consider doing an illegal show here as I would worry it would harm other performers in my area...."
I wish more fire performers had this view...it is absolutly true!
LOVE Flam Chen...love love love them. Donia & I came down and did the Day of the Dead show a couple of years ago and were very impressed with both the talent & friendliness/openness we were shown. I hope I can do it again soon. -
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Unsu...
Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Sun, January 25, 2004 - 4:39 PMUnfortunately the laws in LA are impossible to deal with- every show I do is pretty much illegal here. Unless I come up with $250 minumum to perform and then the perimeters I am given are impossible to perform within.
Also fire insurance here is null and void without a permit and when you have a permit the city of LA's insurance covers it.
I tried to get the LAFD to work with me considering I do over 100 performances a year in the LA area and they were not only very unhelpful, they were also vindictive and downright mean. As soon as I said I wanted to attend meetings and work with them to work on an off site permit process for the future (of which I have been issued before) they turned cold.
Then they actually came to arrest me at a show where they suspected I may do fire- which I was not. I danced with swords. (also illegal under our fire code- even tho there is no fire involved). Fortunately the LAFD didn't even bother to read it's own code- so I was fine.
Miss Satanica -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Tue, January 27, 2004 - 12:28 AMOK, I think I am detecting another topic that could hijack this thread again, the way the quicklink discussion did.
Miss Satanica, the general issue of responding to and reforming inappropriate fire codes is IMHO a valid answer for Why a Fire Arts Guild. And I thank you for bringing it up.
But if anybody is wanting to respond to these specific problems in that specific location (LA) ...
*Please start a separate thread!*
Miss S, you may want to repost that descrip in a new thread, to get them started.
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Tue, May 4, 2004 - 1:00 AMI myself would like to see more more things for the newbie. Its especially important as you pointed out that many people are learning from websites. Since I was pretty much taught by the Flam Chen troup in Tucson(they had open workshops free to anyone) I really have gotten spoiled having seasoned professionals being able to show me proper technique as well being taught by firesafety finatics. For the newbie that is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. At this point in my firespinning career since I'm no longer a newbie...I'd like to give back to a community. I'm hoping a fire arts guild would be a good forum of communication between the experienced and the not so experienced -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Tue, May 4, 2004 - 1:03 AMI forgot to add. that Matt from art of illusion/flammaaeterna had really great workshops that I attended. It was an honor to go within months...of barely knowing what I'm doing to being professional enough to perform with his troup at FlamChens famous/infamous day of the dead parade.....that sort of support is invaluable to those that get into this rather bizarre pastime :) -
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Re: why a Fire Arts Guild?
Tue, June 15, 2004 - 8:01 PMA Fire Arts Guild, why?
First and foremost, Legitimate, fact-based information about safety. I have been spinning fire for over 5 years. My ideas about what is and is not safe have changed drammatically during this time. I can not say with 100% conviction that what me and my troupe do as far as safety goes is 100% safe (well, fire is dangerous by nature). I follow what I have learned and researched, what I think is safe. What I mean is that there are no guidelines to follow and therefore, I am not 100% sure. I think that would be a great contribution of this guild. If I had had access to factual info about safety guidelines when I first began spinning, I would have avoided doing things in the past that I now consider unsafe (like using keyrings). I always have a fire extinguisher, duvateen, fire blanket and wet towel on hand for every performance, as well as at least a 1 to 1 ratio of safeties to spinners. Is that safe enough? I think so, others may not. I NEVER spin inside because I do not know the safety guidelines for this type of performance. I dont want to burn down any buildings or make a room full of people pass out from carbon monoxide poisoning (like I said, I dont know anything about it) so, first, safety guidelines that are free and factual for all. this refers to equipment, fuels, costume as well as combustible materials found in most public places (like styfofoam- great white).
Second, I think that this guild can help legitimize the art form that we are all involved in, creating a reference point for authorities and perhaps made with authorities. I have been having difficulties locally (Philadelphia) getting the fire marshall's cooperation. Fire Performance is brand new here in Philly (unlike LA's problems I've been reading about). The fire cheif said that he's only seen it once before (traveling Russians) in Philly. He will not give my troop a permit to perform or practice with fire on public land. I am still attempting to obtain a permit thru inside connections but think there should be official guidelines to follow, and once met, a permit be granted. He will not work with us on safety issues or even look at our safety practices and let us know if they are approved not. He has pretty much said no, no, no to all of my requests. I have even gone as far as speaking with a lawyer who shot me down because I didnt have any political clout. I think that this is what the guild can help with, clout and legitimization for professional performers.
Third, this guild could act as a database of performance troupes from around the country. Who does what where. A place of community. Free exchange of ideas.
I want to know how I can help. What can I do (aside from not flinging fireballs around, setting spectators on fire, and making us all look bad) to help out this cause? I feel like a national or international Fire Arts Guild is something that needs to be in existence for many reasons.
So, Onward and Upward!!!
Peace, Denise Denise
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