I wholeheartedly concur with every word Pele wrote, especially about fire safeties. I got my start with fire performance by volunteering to learn and practice fire safety skills, and I personally think no one should be allowed to light up a tool unless and until they've done a bit of an "apprenticeship" as a safety.

the way i see it, we should not so much worry about who to let in and who not to let in but put more focus on what we want this tribe to be about... i mean, if you think about it, there are over 200 members in this tribe, and out of that number, i only see regular postings from a bout 5 or so people... so in a way, it doesn't really matter who you let in, cuz the way it is now, most people aren't really that involved in this tribe anyway, or so it seems... focusing on who and who not to let in gets us all tied up in this weird elitist game thing where we have to decide who is hot enough(pun intended) and who isn't, whereas if we shift our focus to things actually fire-related than it will weed out the people who can figure out for themselves if this what interests them or not... there are so many varying levels of people who work with fire, and everybody is doing it for a different reason... i don't think there could possibly be a way to categorize these into yes or no categories... i like the idea of using this as a forum to keep each other posted as to what is going on in the fire communities of other places which will in turn give us strength as a whole... :)

holy sheit ^

it blows me away what some people will do... I practiced for 6 months on and off with tennis balls before lighting up my poi (and i'd been using torches and a bo staff already).

sheesh.


as for the vote - I think that education is a really good thing here. I think it's important that the membership be involved with fire performing in some respects, but that "involved" should be very liberally applied.

eg: my ex, who built all my fire toys, is a licensed pyrotechnician. never spun a poi in his life - but if he were to want membership here, I think he'd have good input.

What I want to know is: What are the advantages vs. disadvantages to having this be private? I am having a really hard time trying to come up with reasons that it would be advantageous to make this a private tribe. The threads are infinite in lenth and number (or damn close to infinite) meaning there's plenty of space for everybody and their thoughts. "Experts" don't have to respond to a thread from a novice or non-fire artist if they don't want to or if they feel like its wasting their time. Let others answer questions that the non-professionals have. I don't think they post much, anyway. I get the feeling they mostly read, as there are so many knowledgeable people on this tribe that really offer great advice/tips/info. I don't think shutting them out to that is wise (unless they can still read our threads as a non-member).
But really, what are the pro's of being super-selective with membership?

Moderated tribes can be viewed by anyone, and any one can make an attempt to contact anyone else on tribe, so you could, theoretically, contact the moderator with questions....however that would make for a lot of work for the moderator.

I am on & regularly monitor 5 fire tribes (as it seems most here are)...even started one for my area. I think information is readily available for a novice that is looking. It's nice to have a tribe where the conversations flow in a more serious minded way. There are 5 of those to one of this type...and I do see the difference.

Perhaps the tribe description could reference some of the open fire tribes, that way if people found this one first but did not "qualify", they would know where else to go.

...i just wanted to point out that there already are 'newbies' that are a part of this tribe (some of them have responded in this thread) and i don't think the questions in the discussion section have been geared toward beginner things from what i have seen... but i have only been a part of this tribe since january so i don't know...

i agree, and hat to be snobby in any way but there are plenty of other tribes for "beginners", but the fire safties are a key element to the performance and should be allowed in
1.no
2.yes to fire safties

no
and
no

Howdy all- nice discussion we've got going here. I appreciate that for the most part we're all keeping it on-topic and non-acrimonious.
Some points I want to address:

First, to answer Kristina's question: we're talking about tribe membership here, not guild membership. IMO, we've got a few other things to do before we'll be ready to define guild membership. I think its a given that it'll be more formal than membership in this tribe.

So far, I've been letting in anyone who has in fact played with fire or used it mechanically. When i created the tribe, I was not prepared to try to draw for all of us the line between "newbies" and "advanced" - altho i do focus on getting the more experienced people in here. I left it up to people to self-edit and respect the nature of the forum, and for the most part they have.
Personally, I'm more comfortable with defining *specific skills* as basic/intermediate/advanced. Lots of us have some skills with one tool, and have never even tried others.

[BTW Riz, I squarely disagree with the comment that this has all been idle chit-chat. We generally stay pretty on-topic here - which will make this a far more navigable resource as it gets on into hundreds of threads. Also, theres a *lot* more than 5 people posting. I think we can make the claim to both the least off-topic chat *and* the highest ratio of participation/posts/threads to total membership of any fire-related tribe on tribe.net. Even the jokes are on-topic! I am very proud of that. The jokes, that is]

Perhaps we can address skill level issues & theory more as we define what we really want from the guild. For now, we're just talking about who we're letting into the *tribe*, and there is just no practical way for me to evaluate & enforce any kind of heirarchical qualification ("newbie" vs "advanced"), so thats not on the table right now. Everything on tribe is ultimately on the honor system anyway! And as Krystal and Riz point out, there are some real horror stories out there and Id rather not push away people that are already using fire.
Also, I really respect Colleen's approach - I think it will ultimately make her a powerful performer (if shes not already) and I would not want folks like her to be excluded from discussion.
The question is, do we welcome/invite people who are curious but have not actually lit up yet, and are looking for teachers.

my personal feeling on 1) is: no.
They can read everything we write, and ask questions of individuals, so theyre not being cut off. I plan to post a comprehensive list of all the local forums (I think a good guild should support local organizing), so we will be a resource for them in that way. We can also at some point post recommendations for teachers, and if we do it right, that can be a *great* resource. (lets please don't get into this or any other side topics on this thread. If you want, start a new one) And once they've lit up, they can come back to this tribe.

on question 2) I agree with Jaime's logic. Dedicated fire safeties may well have relevant points to make, and I don't foresee them clogging up the forum with a lot of chatter. If it starts to happen, I'll ask them to stop.
I agree with Q, costumers are safety personnel - or should be!

There are several photographers applying and, as Pele noted, I find that dedicated documentarians sometimes have something to add as well. The good ones have a trained eye, and we are performers/artists who want to hone our art, and many of us want to generate good promo material.

Kandice, nobody has been denied tribe membership, except two or three people who were just confused (not fireworkers) or who never answered my queries at all after several attempts (inactive accounts?). Tedwards case I simply haven't had time to get to yet (and hes shown no particular interest either). My online time is still severely limited (I still have about 100 unread PMs), There are presently more than 20 people waiting to hear from us about these two broader questions so IMO they have more weight, so he's going to have to be patient a little longer. (also it may be an issue that can be resolved in PMs, & doesn't really need to take up forum space)

Alice, you kind of describe what I'm doing now (trying to anyway), but you bring up some very good points that are a little off-topic and really deserve their own thread. will you do the honors or should I?

Its been more than 10 days since this thread was introduced, but we're still shy of 15% representation - a pretty modest proportion! so i'm taking it as an indication that we need more time. Come on, peeps, speak up! we need at least a dozen more votes! preferably two dozen!

Addendum to my earlier post.

I do feel that this is not the place for newbies but that, for this Tribe, self-selection is the only possible way of monitoring this. One can't exactly administer a test as part of the admission process, right?

I 2nd what Alice & Roger said! We should be an open community.....that is what fire spinning is based upon - learning and sharing with those around you not to mention exploring your own creativity. Who are we to denie anyone that? To be honest I've only been spinning for a year - should I be kicked out labeled a newbie or have to spin in front of a judgement panel hoping that I pass and am accepted all just for inclusion to this tribe?

Besides if ppl really want in they are just going to lie and there isn't anyway we can prove them wrong!

;)my 2 cents,
rachel

[1]no
[2] Yes,thats my vote

Hello,
In response to question #1) I think that people looking for instruction would still be able to find this through one of the several other tribes devoted to firedance. For this and countless other reasons previously posted, I would have to say that no, membership should not be extended to non-firedancers. For question #2) Photographers and videographers might provide valuable exposure to new groups or individuals looking for these services. Fire safety people are also a key part of the performance and the culture, so yes to question #2!
-Sarah

Marco, I'm glad to see you here and these are reasonable questions but most are already answered eleswhere (in the tribe's main description and in the cryptically labelled thread "Why a Fire Arts Guild?) and the rest *should* be answered elsewhere (the "Not why but How" thread you mentioned would be good place). This thread is expressly for a specific vote.

> Figure out & implement the Guild's purpose before you begin to exclude people on the basis of merit.

As mentioned previously in this thread, this vote has nothing to do with merit. *Thats* another discussion entirely. What we're voting on is questions of what categories of people/skills (other than practicing fire performers and sculptors) will be invited to help us create our guild.

well, better a late vote I suppose than none at all, right?

I would ask you all to refer back to the posts that question where the line is. I know the question seems black and white, but what about those of us who may have lit up poi once, and decided for ourselves that we need more training or practice in the artistry before lighting up again? For the record, I've lit up a few things, but only still under supervision- that was my choice and comfort level. In my mind, that qualifies me as a newbie, but I am told that I'm pretty good and should be lighting up again already. I am neither a child nor an inexperienced performer. I would hate to be voted out because a group feels that I could not self-regulate my "inexperienced" comments, and be denied the cumulative knowledge of performers in an art I am working at.
so- I don't think there should be any regulation. Moderation- definately- but limitations on membership would be a shame.
that's my 2cents.
Be Well,
Tracy